How hard is this to do? Will it throw sensors? What are my options to get rid of it?
DPF Delete on VW TDI engine or Audi TDI
QuitersLOSE14
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Hope you spelled my name right :nana2:
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5 Posts
I'm next, I'm next...
I've already talked to Kyle about tunning for the end of July begining of August and I can't wait!
When I last spoked with Kyle he noted there is no EGR delete availible... On the Malone Tunning site there is also no mention of this delete. If I got this figured out correctly Toeball, I guess your test running a few things for Malone.
I remember when I first bought the car everyone was afraid of touching it, maybe afraid of runing their cars. Now people are adventuring into the unknown and coming back with results, suddenly everyone's interested. From my point of view the results look good.
I've got about a dozen mod's on my car so far. The more I do the more the car feel's the way it should be. :nana2:
Thanks for the pics and info.
Nick M
I've already talked to Kyle about tunning for the end of July begining of August and I can't wait!
When I last spoked with Kyle he noted there is no EGR delete availible... On the Malone Tunning site there is also no mention of this delete. If I got this figured out correctly Toeball, I guess your test running a few things for Malone.
I remember when I first bought the car everyone was afraid of touching it, maybe afraid of runing their cars. Now people are adventuring into the unknown and coming back with results, suddenly everyone's interested. From my point of view the results look good.
I've got about a dozen mod's on my car so far. The more I do the more the car feel's the way it should be. :nana2:
Thanks for the pics and info.
Nick M
Joined
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4 Posts
Thanks Stevan for filling in a lot of the details here on Myturbodiesel.com! Sadly I do not have enough time to get to everyone's questions on all the websites! In general to correct a few things and to answer a few questions:
1) If someone installed a downpipe and has stock tuning the car will A) throw codes but not go into limp mode B) Smoke heavily while it tries to do a Regen. This could damage the turbo if the flapper valve is still in place!
2) I currently offer everything needed to do a full exhaust and tune for off road vehicles only. I also offer up the options to sell high flow products if customers want to run the pipe on the street. As stressed here and elsewhere it is your responsibility to maintain your cars requirements per state I, Perfomance Diesel Engineering or this forum is not responsible for members or viewers actions.
3) Currently Mark and I are the only US based companies offering a complete package that is designed to work together. We have both worked many long and hard hours to test, tune, install, and configure these products for OEM like feel and GTI like performance. We are also looking for further tuning and parts options that will benifit the TDI Community for power, and fuel economy.
4) It was mentioned why the EU 170hp CR has more power? I can tell you the pistons, injectors, head, turbo, EGR system, and ecu, and DPF are all different on these cars. I have found out the hard way that the turbos are not able to be swapped onto our NA cars. Further upgrades for these cars are possible but it is custom setups only at this point.
5) By removing the DPF and regen cycles a higher level of bio might be able to be used in these cars. From my research Bosch still only suggests 5% for warranty sake. I do know some individuals running B20 now, but no long term tests have yet been reported. Ideally someone willing to do this will also take oil samples before and after. This might lead us to be able to have extened oil changes or use the older pd oil versions as well. If anyone is looking to do the testing for any of this please feel free to email me and I would be happy to help you setup the tests and help with the details needed. I sadly do not have the time right now to do this testing.
1) If someone installed a downpipe and has stock tuning the car will A) throw codes but not go into limp mode B) Smoke heavily while it tries to do a Regen. This could damage the turbo if the flapper valve is still in place!
2) I currently offer everything needed to do a full exhaust and tune for off road vehicles only. I also offer up the options to sell high flow products if customers want to run the pipe on the street. As stressed here and elsewhere it is your responsibility to maintain your cars requirements per state I, Perfomance Diesel Engineering or this forum is not responsible for members or viewers actions.
3) Currently Mark and I are the only US based companies offering a complete package that is designed to work together. We have both worked many long and hard hours to test, tune, install, and configure these products for OEM like feel and GTI like performance. We are also looking for further tuning and parts options that will benifit the TDI Community for power, and fuel economy.
4) It was mentioned why the EU 170hp CR has more power? I can tell you the pistons, injectors, head, turbo, EGR system, and ecu, and DPF are all different on these cars. I have found out the hard way that the turbos are not able to be swapped onto our NA cars. Further upgrades for these cars are possible but it is custom setups only at this point.
5) By removing the DPF and regen cycles a higher level of bio might be able to be used in these cars. From my research Bosch still only suggests 5% for warranty sake. I do know some individuals running B20 now, but no long term tests have yet been reported. Ideally someone willing to do this will also take oil samples before and after. This might lead us to be able to have extened oil changes or use the older pd oil versions as well. If anyone is looking to do the testing for any of this please feel free to email me and I would be happy to help you setup the tests and help with the details needed. I sadly do not have the time right now to do this testing.
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128 Posts
OK, few things lads,
First, the DPF does indeed burn off virtually all stored soot during a regen. You can watch the difference between the pressure sensors in Vag Com. The car will throw an active regen when it is about 40% loaded. It will keep going until it approaches zero difference in the sensors. I have cut up a fully clogged DPF, and it was about quarter "loaded" at best, but perhaps the porous walls themselves had become clogged. Either way, the DPF loads up with a lot of soot over a few weeks, and this is continually burnt down to zero. The car will throw a forced regen when it hits 40% loaded, usually every few weeks. If this fails, it will throw the DPF light and tell you to "see instruction" at 50%, which means to drive at steady speed while it tries again. If this fails, the coil light joins in, and it continues to block till at 80% or so ( apparently, haven't confirmed this personally ) it goes into limp, and you have to take it to VW to regen it as it has that scary chance of catching fire! I've forced my regens to fail to see what happened ( by unplugging the EGR flap ) and in my opinion a DPF would fully load in several weeks without forced regens.
As mentioned earlier it is the oil ash that can't be regenerated, and VW note this themselves in their self study programs.
Finally the MKV 170 has a lot of differences over the 140, from the top of my head:
Lightened and forged crank, 4 counterweights vs 8 ( lighter, stronger )
Flatter pistons, better swirl surface, basically better fuel use / power production
Valves changed and recessed in head to improve combustion chamber
Higher pressure Pizeo injectors - Siemens - currently starting to fail in reasonable numbers worldwide. 140 seems immune here.
Different head gasket which strengthens head
Extra water jacket in head with extra cooling around injectors and exhaust ports
Different inducer housing on turbo 1749VC varient vs VB varient in 140 - flows more air
Far better VNT vane control / feedback in 170 - more responsive turbo
DPF particle filter in 170, disposable, costs $$$, but hey, no soot!
Siemens ( 170 ) vs Bosch ( 140 ) ECU system - Siemens sucks due to injector failures
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fix-the-VW-AUDI-Skoda-Seat-Pd170-TDI-Injector-Failure/156033921135623
All that said it is one heck of a fun drive out of the box!
First, the DPF does indeed burn off virtually all stored soot during a regen. You can watch the difference between the pressure sensors in Vag Com. The car will throw an active regen when it is about 40% loaded. It will keep going until it approaches zero difference in the sensors. I have cut up a fully clogged DPF, and it was about quarter "loaded" at best, but perhaps the porous walls themselves had become clogged. Either way, the DPF loads up with a lot of soot over a few weeks, and this is continually burnt down to zero. The car will throw a forced regen when it hits 40% loaded, usually every few weeks. If this fails, it will throw the DPF light and tell you to "see instruction" at 50%, which means to drive at steady speed while it tries again. If this fails, the coil light joins in, and it continues to block till at 80% or so ( apparently, haven't confirmed this personally ) it goes into limp, and you have to take it to VW to regen it as it has that scary chance of catching fire! I've forced my regens to fail to see what happened ( by unplugging the EGR flap ) and in my opinion a DPF would fully load in several weeks without forced regens.
As mentioned earlier it is the oil ash that can't be regenerated, and VW note this themselves in their self study programs.
Finally the MKV 170 has a lot of differences over the 140, from the top of my head:
Lightened and forged crank, 4 counterweights vs 8 ( lighter, stronger )
Flatter pistons, better swirl surface, basically better fuel use / power production
Valves changed and recessed in head to improve combustion chamber
Higher pressure Pizeo injectors - Siemens - currently starting to fail in reasonable numbers worldwide. 140 seems immune here.
Different head gasket which strengthens head
Extra water jacket in head with extra cooling around injectors and exhaust ports
Different inducer housing on turbo 1749VC varient vs VB varient in 140 - flows more air
Far better VNT vane control / feedback in 170 - more responsive turbo
DPF particle filter in 170, disposable, costs $$$, but hey, no soot!
Siemens ( 170 ) vs Bosch ( 140 ) ECU system - Siemens sucks due to injector failures
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fix-the-VW-AUDI-Skoda-Seat-Pd170-TDI-Injector-Failure/156033921135623
All that said it is one heck of a fun drive out of the box!
Running a higher bio-blend is ok, even running B100, but keep in mind you'll need to change your oil more often. Also with the DPF gone, 507 oil is no longer required since the main difference between 505 and 507 is the reduction in ash to protect the DPF.
Well, I didn't gain anything because I wound up going to 255/40R18 tires which have a higher rolling resistance so I wound up about even. Then on top of that I'm a more aggressive driver so the extra power wound up costing me mileage unless I specifically tell myself to slow down.
On my dad's car, who's a far more conservative driver, he gained about 10% in mileage. His car has almost no mods beyond the DPF delete and a stage 1 tune.
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165 Posts
I was kinda expecting your response to sound like it does.
Stickier tires, harder driving style (I applaud you) but this type of information wouldn't help me decide to save $$ for this mod on my car.
But then you say:
Are you guys starting a DPF Delete club or something? ...I love it.
Seriously though.
Your dad sounds like me (conservative driver).
I use my car to commute, first.
Fun is a close second.
And 10% is at least a 4 mpg gain, right?
You sound like you have been doing a lot of research before modding.
Have you considered a water/methanol injection setup (DevilsOwn or Snow) as a power-adder.
Thanks for the information.
Stickier tires, harder driving style (I applaud you) but this type of information wouldn't help me decide to save $$ for this mod on my car.
But then you say:
What!....there's two of you guys!
Are you guys starting a DPF Delete club or something? ...I love it.
Seriously though.
Your dad sounds like me (conservative driver).
I use my car to commute, first.
Fun is a close second.
And 10% is at least a 4 mpg gain, right?
You sound like you have been doing a lot of research before modding.
Have you considered a water/methanol injection setup (DevilsOwn or Snow) as a power-adder.
Thanks for the information.
Actually, there's 3 in the family with a 4th on the way, maybe. I've got my JSW, my younger brother has a 2010 Golf 2 door TDI. He's waiting for his warranty to run out before he does the DPF delete, and dad's got a 2012 Golf 2 door which was de-DPF'ed before the first oil change. He just got back from a road trip, going Houston to Toronto on 2 tanks, which means roughly 800 miles per tank. Not too shabby, and WAY better than any Prius ever could.
I usually do a lot of research before modding because I tend to customize the car to match my needs and desires, which is to say, significantly. Usually enhancing some characteristic over another. Since I make quite a few mods to a given vehicle, I have to be sure they'll all play nice with each other, such as combining the trailer hitch receiver with the Votex rear bumper.
Honestly, never even considered water/meth. My brother runs it on his C5 Z06 (700 whp) to protect the engine, but I'm at the limits of both the turbo and the injectors and still within the safe zone for the engine itself. I don't even run it on my Dodge Cummins and that thing can hit 50 psi.
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165 Posts
Unless you guys have actually added some kinda crazy extra-large extended-range fuel tanks to your rides for the next Trans-America iron-butt endurance rally you're planning on entering....
14.5 gallons of diesel going 800 miles equals 55 mpg.
Almost a 30% increase in the rated 42 mpg.
This mod is really sounding like the diet my commuter car needs.
Thanks again for the thread.
I thought that was done on motorcyces. Seriously, just cause the car can go all day doesn't mean you don't stop to use the restroom and get food. I've made the drive from Toronto to Houston solo in 40 hours before. With my two brothers switching out, we've done it in 26. It's really not that bad.
But my JSW was always seeing 42 mpg on the freeway, the Golfs were getting closer to 50. Quite honestly, I've never understood how burning substantially more fuel is good for the environment.
I averaged 55mpg on one tank. 820 miles on 15 gallons (I fill till I can see diesel in the neck). I am on stock programming and exhaust hardware, sans muffler. That mileage is doable in stock form if you are patient/disciplined enough and with favorable traffic conditions.
Yeah, but none of my family is patient enough for hypermiling. I'm sure you could eek out 60+ mpg that way.
15 gallons? that's the capacity of our tanks?
How much further or should I say, how much fuel is typically left when the computer says "RANGE = 0 miles"?
I put 14.1 gallons in my car the other day and I had driven about 4 miles after "0" came up.
Scott
How much further or should I say, how much fuel is typically left when the computer says "RANGE = 0 miles"?
I put 14.1 gallons in my car the other day and I had driven about 4 miles after "0" came up.
Scott
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165 Posts
14.5 gallons is what is listed in the specification.
Since 15 gallons can fit, and the car was driven into the fueling station, then it would seem its a bit more than 15 if you super-fill.
I like to imagine there is a gallon left. I am not sure of this quantity. I'm sure someone can tell us.
If there is a gallon left, it would be good for whatever mpg you're getting that day.
So, another 55 miles or less. my two cents
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9,163 Posts
I think we are getting a bit offtopic2 with DPF Delete when we are talking about fuel tank capacities there is a thread on this if you search? http://www.myturbodiesel.com/forum/f19/fuel-capacity-8197/
Well the US spec is 14.5 US gallons for the Golf which is 54.88 litres the Euro spec is 55 Ltr which is 12.1 UK gallons. I've never fitted more than 54 litres in mine after driving 4 miles with 0 miles showing on the miles left counter so I don't think there is a gallon left in the tank?
Well the US spec is 14.5 US gallons for the Golf which is 54.88 litres the Euro spec is 55 Ltr which is 12.1 UK gallons. I've never fitted more than 54 litres in mine after driving 4 miles with 0 miles showing on the miles left counter so I don't think there is a gallon left in the tank?
Interesting question, and why I ride a stinky 2 stroke scooter around town. The whole air pollution issue has shifted over the last 40 years. In the 70s the issue was smog, because we didn't yet understand global warming, but we could certainly understand smog. Then catalytic converters and fuel injection came about, and smog became less of an issue. Sadly, now the bigger problem is carbon dioxide in the environment. So, the short answer to your question is that currently the loss in fuel economy that results from the use of a DPF is probably a bigger issue than smog, but with a significant caveat. Diesel soot is a particularly nasty carcinogen, so keeping it out of the air we breathe is pretty darn important.
Summary: recommend that you view your that can get >50 MPG and can sequester all that nasty carginogenic stuff as the best of both worlds, which is really what it is. Seems to me that the negatives of the DPF are way more than offset by it's benefits.
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10 Posts
Keep this thread going!! Once my 3 year service is up, I plan on going this route as well. My only concern is that once your ECU is flashed, if you need to have any updates flashed by the dealer, it can reverse the tune, no? Even if the tuner will re-tune for free, the ECU has to be shipped out...
I'm hoping by next year or so when I'm serious about doing the DPF delete, there will be more options available.
I'm hoping by next year or so when I'm serious about doing the DPF delete, there will be more options available.
I'm at the dealer now. We're going to try pulling the ECU and updating the rest of the car. We'll see how that goes.
Edit: Nope, couldn't find the right firmware to flash onto the CECM. It'll have to wait for a bit.
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