Been reading around and say a few times an egr delete will give better mpg just wanna know if its worth it and if there are any risks that follow do it ? Annnnd were can you get a good kit for it
EGR delete
Candelstick
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"Removal" is not the issue. I'm talking "function." Maybe 2010s operate differently, I don't know (I plead ignorant on anything other than ALHs). The originator of this thread is asking about a 2000 year vehicle, which I assume has an ALH engine.
I have TWO identical (2000 ALH) cars. One has only 117k miles and the other has 143k miles. Neither one of them has had the intake manifold off that I am aware of* (and both are stock- no EGR mods). Care to guess which one is suffering from intake manifold clogging? The one with lower miles! ( my wife's car can run circles around mine!) Reason? It (my car) was owned and driven by two different owners, BOTH women, and, likely, for shorter trips (hence the lower mileage). This suggests to me that driving technique/style and longer trips (both my wife and I have longer trips) makes MORE difference than in mods to the EGR system. I would venture to say that those who have done EGR deletes drive their vehicles in the manner in which, if done so from the start, would pretty much eliminate the entire EGR clogging issue.
* The records on my wife's car is pretty spartan. Its PO, however, was noted (through more recent service records) complaining about poor performance; the service techs, however, both noted that the car ran really well: I would fully support their findings- the car runs VERY well (it's an extremely HAPPY car!); I suspect the PO just wasn't familiar with older TDIs (he has new one; his wife also has a newer one) and was expecting the performance to be like newer ones? (I'd suggested that he drive my car if he wanted to know what actual poor performance was like.)
My car was meticulously maintained: there are records covering its entire life. My wife's car (higher mileage) on the other hand, has minimal records: fortunately one of the records covers a recent timing belt change (about 7k miles ago).
I have TWO identical (2000 ALH) cars. One has only 117k miles and the other has 143k miles. Neither one of them has had the intake manifold off that I am aware of* (and both are stock- no EGR mods). Care to guess which one is suffering from intake manifold clogging? The one with lower miles! ( my wife's car can run circles around mine!) Reason? It (my car) was owned and driven by two different owners, BOTH women, and, likely, for shorter trips (hence the lower mileage). This suggests to me that driving technique/style and longer trips (both my wife and I have longer trips) makes MORE difference than in mods to the EGR system. I would venture to say that those who have done EGR deletes drive their vehicles in the manner in which, if done so from the start, would pretty much eliminate the entire EGR clogging issue.
* The records on my wife's car is pretty spartan. Its PO, however, was noted (through more recent service records) complaining about poor performance; the service techs, however, both noted that the car ran really well: I would fully support their findings- the car runs VERY well (it's an extremely HAPPY car!); I suspect the PO just wasn't familiar with older TDIs (he has new one; his wife also has a newer one) and was expecting the performance to be like newer ones? (I'd suggested that he drive my car if he wanted to know what actual poor performance was like.)
My car was meticulously maintained: there are records covering its entire life. My wife's car (higher mileage) on the other hand, has minimal records: fortunately one of the records covers a recent timing belt change (about 7k miles ago).
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From http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/egr-system-faq-for-vw-and-audi-tdi/
If you block off the cooler does it or does it not alter the feature/function of quicker warm-ups?
I guess I'm not understanding the value (positive functionality) of blocking off the cooler.
Before going into the engine, exhaust gasses normally pass through a cooler. A side benefit of an EGR cooler is faster engine warm up because the hot exhaust gasses give their heat to the coolant. This is great for a diesel because cold engines have greater engine wear and worse fuel economy and emissions. Diesels have a lot of piston blowby and once the engine is warmed up, the engine seals tighter and gets better fuel economy.
If you block off the cooler does it or does it not alter the feature/function of quicker warm-ups?
I guess I'm not understanding the value (positive functionality) of blocking off the cooler.
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"I think people are blinded by what they read rather than experience. I blocked mine off, and I haven't noticed a difference and we've had a couple 9 degree mornings. Everything seems normal"
In a short enough time period ANYTHING can appear successful.
"I haven't noticed a difference"
How are you "noticing?" Do you have a baseline (with numbers) of "before" and now with "after?"
'How did you go bankrupt?' Bill asked. 'Two ways,' Mike said. 'Gradually and then suddenly.' - Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises
And, well, you're still talking about your 2010, yes? Is what you're commenting on about your 2010 applicable to the OP's question (and his/her 2000)? I know that I can compare on an ALH-to-ALH basis: I've got an UltraGuage and can pick up lots of actual numbers (oil temp is something that I've been meaning to watch); when my funds increase I'll be purchasing an VCDS.
I'll leave it all at this, while passing along a cumulative knowledge of EGR systems:
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/egr-system-faq-for-vw-and-audi-tdi/
Will report here (or elsewhere on what my actual MEASURED results are from any modifications I make).
In a short enough time period ANYTHING can appear successful.
"I haven't noticed a difference"
How are you "noticing?" Do you have a baseline (with numbers) of "before" and now with "after?"
'How did you go bankrupt?' Bill asked. 'Two ways,' Mike said. 'Gradually and then suddenly.' - Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises
And, well, you're still talking about your 2010, yes? Is what you're commenting on about your 2010 applicable to the OP's question (and his/her 2000)? I know that I can compare on an ALH-to-ALH basis: I've got an UltraGuage and can pick up lots of actual numbers (oil temp is something that I've been meaning to watch); when my funds increase I'll be purchasing an VCDS.
I'll leave it all at this, while passing along a cumulative knowledge of EGR systems:
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/egr-system-faq-for-vw-and-audi-tdi/
Will report here (or elsewhere on what my actual MEASURED results are from any modifications I make).
i blocked my EGR pipe at the exhaust end. the gases never leave the exhaust line. results: engine warm up time - at least 25% higher. noiser engine. and, CHECK ENGINE LIGHT ON --> the gaseses that should've been recirculated, now they were spinning the turbo, so the turbo made that much more boost. the ECU saw that (a bit more intake pressure), knew it shouldn't've happend, so it lit the light. probably could've driven the car like this for thousands of km, ignoring the little yellow light. (don't have the money to modify the EGR maps in the ECU). i chose to remove the plate and delete the error and the light stays off since then. the main reason was the engine warming up slower. more then 50% of an engine wear happens before it reaches the nominal operating temp. there's no reason for encreasing the time it takes the engine to warm up.
Can't be scared all of your life, it's just a car. How can you not like the sound of a turbo? Are you a woman? If you just start your car and go back in the house the EGR isn't flowing so warm up times wouldn't be affected. It only flows during light throttle and cruise speeds. That's why VW recommends starting it and driving off. That's why I noticed my car is warmed up when i drive by the same spot as usual.
Never said i did or did not like the sound with the egr off. If i was a car manufacturer, i also would recommend driving off at zero degrees coolant temp...if u have enough money..u can actually follow the advice. My engine warms up slower with the egr off.
For an ALH, the duty cycle on idle should be in the 90% range. VW recommends starting it and driving off because light loads generate more heat than an idle. Idling your diesel engine should cool it down, it's why after running your engine hard you should idle it for a bit to cool it off gradually (with circulating oil and coolant). Don't run your engine hard when it's cold though.
re: to delete or not:
I removed my egr system (on my ALH), but blocked off the egr valve on the intake so I still keep the ASV. That's where I have my boost pressure sensor. And I have an egt probe going down the exhaust manifold block-off plate. If you're running a stock engine there's no point in doing an egr delete - if you have vcds search for and apply the trick to reduce the egr flow and you'll be fine.
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not sure if this is a good place to ask my question, but I have a 2004 Jetta PD that I've stripped down the intake,egr, exhaust manifold, cooler, etc. I want to put in the dark side egr and cooler deletes.
Howsomeever, They have a couple of different kits for the same car. they have a PD 90/100 or a PD 150. I went to the dealer and they were clueless which is no surprise. However, anybody out there that could help me identify which kit I need. Note: I ve tried emailing darkside and US dealers. no response. Tried calling the texas guy in Denton, also, voice mail, no response.
Howsomeever, They have a couple of different kits for the same car. they have a PD 90/100 or a PD 150. I went to the dealer and they were clueless which is no surprise. However, anybody out there that could help me identify which kit I need. Note: I ve tried emailing darkside and US dealers. no response. Tried calling the texas guy in Denton, also, voice mail, no response.
Here are my threads about deleting the EGR valve and cooler on my 2006 TDI Beetle...same BEW engine as yours. To add, the VW part number for the exhaust manifold studs (should they break) is N-044-514-5.
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/threads/bew-egr-delete-hose-s.25810/
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=414941
One thing barely mentioned is the cost of replacement parts (and labor if you don't do it yourself) to repair the EGR system, which is very high. I will discuss/argue with anyone the benefits of doing these deletes on the BEWs and ALHs.
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I'll be happy to share my experiences with maintaining an "legally equipped" vehicle. Somehow I'm kind of doubting that I'll hear of the same for folks who illegally remove their EGR components (esp should they encounter a runaway vehicle and they didn't retain ASV functionality*).
* Imagine having an runaway which results in harm/death to others and that an astute investigator noted that the vehicle's failure was due to illegal modifications. I'd eat you up in court...
I'm well aware of how much it sucks to deal with this EGR crap (pretty sure that it's zero sum when you add in all the emissions from the manufacture of new parts, labor (humans burn energy to do the repair work) and assorted cleaning agents); but, the law is the law (I know that up in British Columbia they dropped emissions testing, so folks up there who wish to do such mods can, um, breathe easier).
At the very least one should retain ASV functionality. Do unto others... I'm sure that folks here have loved ones, and I'm thinking that one migt not be very happy should anything bad happen to them as a result of negligent vehicle alterations.
* Imagine having an runaway which results in harm/death to others and that an astute investigator noted that the vehicle's failure was due to illegal modifications. I'd eat you up in court...
I'm well aware of how much it sucks to deal with this EGR crap (pretty sure that it's zero sum when you add in all the emissions from the manufacture of new parts, labor (humans burn energy to do the repair work) and assorted cleaning agents); but, the law is the law (I know that up in British Columbia they dropped emissions testing, so folks up there who wish to do such mods can, um, breathe easier).
At the very least one should retain ASV functionality. Do unto others... I'm sure that folks here have loved ones, and I'm thinking that one migt not be very happy should anything bad happen to them as a result of negligent vehicle alterations.
Only if one has an "automatic" trans should the ASV Valve (or function) absolutely be kept in the event of runaway. On the BEW the ASV is separate and electrically actuated so the EGR valve, cooler and associated plumbing can be deleted for either trans. For this very reason I have advised not replacing with an after market intake on automatic equipped vehicles on those other threads because they delete the ASV, if you read them. For the ALH, since the EGR valve and ASV are one in the same, you can still block off and remove the cooler/plumbing and function (thus the problem with the intake plugging soot) with an automatic and retain the ability to stop runaway. With a standard trans on either the BEW or ALH, if you choose to remove the ASV/function there is no issue stopping runaway as you just stall the motor. With the BEW a software tune is required to kill the CEL, it shouldn't take much research to determine the differences on the ALH which has more widely been accomplished. As referenced in my other threads, Texas does not check for the EGR (Barry is in Texas) and many other cities and states are the same as there in BC. It's against the law to drive beyond the speed limit as well, but is it a liability for one to promote increasing the performance of the vehicle? Did not post to pick a fight, only to help Barry (or anyone else) who has the same motor, as I have experience pertaining to the subject at hand. I have put over 35,000 miles on since removing the EGR system on my BEW and not one problem.
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Frodoz, if one gets caught doing something that is deemed illegal, then yes, one is going to suffer the consequences.
It's one thing to discuss what one does to one's car that only one drives. For me I look at things a bit more broadly as my wife also drives one if these cars (and I wish to keep them nearly identical because I swap with her in order to work on her car).
I recommend that folks read the FAQ on runaways, as it does a good job explaining this event. It makes it clear the importance of the ASV.
Should I encounter an egr cooler failure I might then consider eliminating it. The valve, however, stays for the ASV.
It's one thing to discuss what one does to one's car that only one drives. For me I look at things a bit more broadly as my wife also drives one if these cars (and I wish to keep them nearly identical because I swap with her in order to work on her car).
I recommend that folks read the FAQ on runaways, as it does a good job explaining this event. It makes it clear the importance of the ASV.
Should I encounter an egr cooler failure I might then consider eliminating it. The valve, however, stays for the ASV.
It would seem the aftermarket makers of "race pipes" could easily incorporate an electric solenoid driven butterfly that opens when the "ignition" is turned on, and close either by spring or positively by solenoid when the key is turned off. Maybe machine in the bosses necessary for the shaft, but leave the parts out, and the holes plugged. Then they could sell the butterfly, shaft, solenoid, and wiring as an upgrade.
So if one should want to delete or block the EGR (contrary to VW and other's wishes) the runaway safety would still be there.
In the older 53 and 71 series Detroit Diesels, there was a red colored "T" handle in the dash which was to be pulled in case of runaway - a cable (or rod?) would release a catch, whereby a stiffly sprung flap would snap shut, denying air to the supercharger, stopping the impending grenade-like behavior of the engine. Bad thing, it had to be manually reset - raise the cab, climb over the engine, take off an intake boot and manually re-latch the plate. Owners and dispatchers were less than happy when someone pulled the RED one, and not the YELLOW one.
Funny, the normally aspirated Cummins and Cats did not have such a device, but maybe the turbo equipped ones did.
It still sounds like the Malone EGR Tune is the hot ticket. Or maybe just put a manually/cable operated butterfly in the intake pipe somewhere...
frank
So if one should want to delete or block the EGR (contrary to VW and other's wishes) the runaway safety would still be there.
In the older 53 and 71 series Detroit Diesels, there was a red colored "T" handle in the dash which was to be pulled in case of runaway - a cable (or rod?) would release a catch, whereby a stiffly sprung flap would snap shut, denying air to the supercharger, stopping the impending grenade-like behavior of the engine. Bad thing, it had to be manually reset - raise the cab, climb over the engine, take off an intake boot and manually re-latch the plate. Owners and dispatchers were less than happy when someone pulled the RED one, and not the YELLOW one.
Funny, the normally aspirated Cummins and Cats did not have such a device, but maybe the turbo equipped ones did.
It still sounds like the Malone EGR Tune is the hot ticket. Or maybe just put a manually/cable operated butterfly in the intake pipe somewhere...
frank
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650 Posts
fxk, yes, I totally agree with what you're saying here. I'm afraid that too many people freak out after seeing the intake clogging and jump to the extreme of yanking it all out, ASV and all!
The facts are all there:
- In most cases tampering with emissions equipment is deemed illegal;
- ULSD and newer oils are said to reduce the tendency for the clogging issues;
- "Proper" driving style can greatly reduce clogging tendencies;
- Without an ASV there's an increased risk of a runaway;
- EGR coolers speed up engine warm-up times;
- Removal of EGR and cooler will result in a CEL (which can be programmed out);
- Removal of EGR cooler makes working on the engine much easier;
- Removal of the EGR cooler reduces instances of rapid coolant loss (due to failed coolers);
- Removal of EGR valve eliminates issues oil loss issues associated with leakages via EGR valve weep holes;
- Removal of EGR valve reduces clogging tendencies due to the elimination of internal parts (this, however, has more to do with elimination of the cooler);
- Removal of the EGR valve eliminates one (two?) source(s) of possible vacuum leaks.
There are far too many points here for me to make a universal endorsement of any kind. I believe that each individual needs to assess the risks for themselves: as I have noted, in no way will I compromise the safety of my wife; even if things were done to only "my" car (placed in quotes because it's a communal property state, what's mine is hers etc.) she is not exempt from driving it (my truck is a different story because she is physically unable to operate it).
After doing one cleaning I am positive that in the future it'll be much quicker (good thing, as I'll be doing this to my wife's car just to ensure that it too has a nice baseline). Even if I have to do this again I am pretty sure that it wouldn't be for MANY years.
The facts are all there:
- In most cases tampering with emissions equipment is deemed illegal;
- ULSD and newer oils are said to reduce the tendency for the clogging issues;
- "Proper" driving style can greatly reduce clogging tendencies;
- Without an ASV there's an increased risk of a runaway;
- EGR coolers speed up engine warm-up times;
- Removal of EGR and cooler will result in a CEL (which can be programmed out);
- Removal of EGR cooler makes working on the engine much easier;
- Removal of the EGR cooler reduces instances of rapid coolant loss (due to failed coolers);
- Removal of EGR valve eliminates issues oil loss issues associated with leakages via EGR valve weep holes;
- Removal of EGR valve reduces clogging tendencies due to the elimination of internal parts (this, however, has more to do with elimination of the cooler);
- Removal of the EGR valve eliminates one (two?) source(s) of possible vacuum leaks.
There are far too many points here for me to make a universal endorsement of any kind. I believe that each individual needs to assess the risks for themselves: as I have noted, in no way will I compromise the safety of my wife; even if things were done to only "my" car (placed in quotes because it's a communal property state, what's mine is hers etc.) she is not exempt from driving it (my truck is a different story because she is physically unable to operate it).
After doing one cleaning I am positive that in the future it'll be much quicker (good thing, as I'll be doing this to my wife's car just to ensure that it too has a nice baseline). Even if I have to do this again I am pretty sure that it wouldn't be for MANY years.
I have to admit, those are some pretty ugly and scary intake manifolds/EGR equipment. Reading this forum does make me wonder if I made the right choice vis a vis a TDI. And I'm 100% with you - I would never risk my wife to a possible runaway in "her" or "my" car, either.
The blank plate method more or less eliminates the warm-up advantage the EGR cooler would provide (no gasses passing through, no heat to the coolant), fortunately keeping the ASV.
As I said before, the Malone EGR Tune is absolutely as far as I would go - and I do appreciate the environment, and only tend to break the law when it matters. Pulling the EGR/cooler would all but make the car unable to be resold in many jurisdictions. Hope folks are saving the old parts!
frank
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