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Discussion Starter #1
friends :

2009 jetta tdi sportwagen with bad immobilizer

i try to make a very long story short with diagnostic milestones and desired solutions ... throwing repair costs in access of $ 1000 and way more at the issue seems prohibitive and remind me at bad business practices of shops and car mfgrs

verified lock rfid reading coil with 1.3 mH and 22 ohms all the way to the instrument cluster connector

early on i was able to occasionally verify rf energy at lock with led on 37 turns 40 mm dia coil positioned at lock and ign turned on ... short led light bursts indicated rf energy in those rare immob good working cases upon turning-on moments

this to me would highly rule out a reading coil or wiring issue to the instrument cluster

can't troubleshoot instrument cluster circuit surrounding the "em4093 001 megamos" immob crypto chip due to lack of available data sheet ... usually chip mfgrs publish chip data as well as very basic sample implementation circuit suggestions ... not available in this case

since the car engine does not run for longer than a couple seconds due to the immob issue, the only available and desired solution for now seems to be to disable / delete the immob in the ecu

the ecu is of newer kind (EDC 17CP14-3.3 bosch part # 0 281 015 795) with an infineon based tricore cpu and there are not too many choices for trustworthy shops able to perform this task

digging through youtube it appears that the minimum required action to delete the immob is to open the sealed ecu ... reason for it seems to be 2-fold

1) software only solution (preferred) : needs a shop with "k-tag" software and adapter or "edc17 immo service tool" software or similar ... access to a signal or pin called "boot" is required and it is necessary to open the ecu to provide access on the circuit board or cpu chip to this "boot" signal ... 12 V power and ground as well as the 2 can-bus signals are typically accessed through the ecu connectors from the outside ... the above mentioned software then is able to delete the immob function inside the ecu

2) open the ecu and unsolder the nv-memory or flash chip (to me totally not preferred) and reprogramming it now detached in a special chip programming adapter, followed by re-soldering it onto the ecu circuit board

this is what i have gathered as being necessary to perform the immob delete inside the edc17 ecu

now comes the catch :

searching for shops providing the immob delete service for the fairly new edc17 ecu (vw mk5) only shows a few supporting places

2 pop up always on top ""kermatdi.com" and "malone tuning"

since this delete service requires me mailing the, to my car matched ecu with the latest smog regulations program inside, to the selected service ... it is a shipment with a value in excess of $ 1000 or way more and this is where i get a bit nervous ... hopefully understandable since all i have is web-page based information and some referrals from various forums

i do not want to say anything bad about shops i don't know or have no experience with in the next statements and am only referring to info on the web

https://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/kermatdi-tooele-utah-c432863.html

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=252799

i realize that the above mentioned accusations contained on those web sites are only statements, but make we wonder if they are the right places for me to do the job in a trustworthy manner ... both are usually mentioned in a positive manner on this forum ... what to believe ??? sorry for asking this, i would like to believe this forum

next : some of the remaining shops either provide no business address and or phone # at their web site until u place the order or in one case a business addr to a google-maps addr under different name in a whole in the wall location and as mail-to addr a google-maps addr of a ups store

i would at this time point out that i was very happy to get a detailed answer to an email of mine from a shop named varpartsma despite the fact that he can not perform the service since he has not upgraded his tools ... this was not meant as advertising, even it seems, but this was the only very positive answer in my quest to find a shop so far

if any one of you with a 2009 or similar mk5 tdi with an edc17 ecu had a delete immobilizer done to it and was satisfied, i would really like to know, since i might make my decision based upon it

i was also interested in having my ecu cloned to a used replacement ecu for interchangeability in case of future issues ... thoughts and shops performing such service is highly appreciated as well

i would provide detailed testing steps i performed including the rf testing coil and test equipment if requested

sorry for this lengthy post and thanks, cheers EinHexenMeister

i can also be reached under the same name in gmail
 

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First posts normally go in introductions else you could get a free fix and we never see you again!!!

Forum Rules and Guidelines

You can't delete the immobilizer you need to contact one of the chip tuners they can do that.

You need to get your motor scanned (preferably with VAG-COM\VCDS) for any error codes logged in the ecu and post them, that will save a lot of guessing and check systems out.
 

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Premium Member
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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
sorry for not understanding the forum rules ... i'll try to introduce myself and the issue i'm having, but this will be a lengthy one ... also, i paid the $ 9.99 to get some special access on the forum, whatever this means

i own a 2009 vw tdi jetta sportswagen with 25 k mile at the date of purchase in 2014 ... i'm 70 years old now (originally from vienna austria) and no longer into racing my car ... was very very happy with it, despite that the read door latch broke and now i'm running it with a wire and a handle from inside ... initially didn't want to spend the money since i was not sure if i can keep it caused by the dieselgate and since didn't have time to fix it, it's still the same way ... the same applies to the roll up curtain for the sunroof

got the diesel gate squared away by the local vw dealership in roseville california as well as the 50 k miles service ... right around a year ago

a couple month ago the dsg tranny clutches acted really really bad and weird, despite my peaceful driving, and the roseville dealership got me a new one for free .. hurrrrahhhhhhh .. long live vw

a couple of weeks ago "wolfee" my car didn't start and gave me the immobilizer message ... called the dealership and after some explanations it appeared that the instrument cluster seems faulty ... possible $ 1500 upwards including a 70 mile tow

and here starts the immob saga :

i do have a vcds and know to a degree on how to use it, but i also trust the laws of physics and diagnostic based upon them

i am an electronics engineers out of silicon valley designing analog and digital circuits and especially writing firmware for micro controllers for 40 years ... just as a base line ... i unfortunately never worked with a tricore cpu, but plenty of others in assembly, "C" and "C++"

reading information about the rfid chip in the key and other info on the net (don't remember all addr anymore) it appeared clear to me that this should operate somewhere in the 200 kHz range ... ebay sells pc boards with a printed copper coil with 20 turns and an led to detect this type of rf (my assumption) ... since i didn't want to wait a month or longer i wound an air-coil with transformer wire (wire dia is not that critical, mine was 0.1 mm) on a toilet paper cardboard core with 40 mm and soldered a high brightness led to the ends and re enforce and protect this gizmo with epoxy ... cut it short and placed this ring over the key lock entry

initially during some tests i was able to start the car and it stayed running ... during those good cases the led was lighting up for a short period when applying ignition on ... reason for the led lighting up is the fact that my detector coil also sensed some of the, from the sender / reader coil built into the key lock, emitted rf energy to read the rfid chip in the key ... therefore i assume that the rfid chip in the key could be ruled out as failure

yes, i also left the ign on for 20 plus minutes to reset or retrain, or whatever term one might use, the immobilizer ... later i was tired of the waiting and disconnected the batt and engaged the brake pedal to discharge any capacitive charge inside all electric components or similar ... sometimes the immob worked but most of it not until it completely stopped

the vcds gave an error "no signal / lost communication" or so on vcds device # 25 which i was not able to clear, except after a good immob start event case ... i also had to clear the engine start failure caused by the immob failure in the vcds engine device

this all happened a week ago and i took the ecu out since i plan to have the immob disabled in the ecu ... i need a running car to continue anything

further i took out the instrument cluster and measured from the instrument cluster connector out, to the lock inductivty including it's wiring with a digital LCR bridge meter ... result 1.37 mH and 23 ohms, which seemed right to me from a dc perspective ... at 100 kHz this relates to a roughly 860 ohms load for the driving or resonance circuit ... assumption now is, rf sending / reading coil and wiring at no fault

disassembly of instrument cluster (smaller rectangular board with big connector to wiring harness) :

there is one 16 chip (soic package) with some passive components with copper traces on both sides of the circuit board leading to the sender / reader coil pins ... this circuit has it's own well isolated ground plane with only one narrow connection to surrounding outer main ground plane along with about 5 connections to the outer circuits (3 of them to the cpu)

chip is marked as em4093.001 from a company named megamos ... yes u can buy those chips in china and hong-kong, but it doesn't any good as long as i don't know what it sort of does with respect to connectivity and / or how to talk to it from an electrical signal standpoint, even on a very basic level

this is the chip which does the dedicated rf generation as well as encrypted communication through the coil in the ign lock ... but NO DATASHEET available, anywhere ... end of story for debugging the circuit and all solder joints look sort of reasonably good ... for now i ain't sitting for hours on my stereo microscope for a wild goose solder connection failure chase, not knowing any electrical circuit ... not for now, maybe later ... 1st the car has to run again

well sorry, that i didn't provide more vcds diagnostic info, but i felt that the case was pretty clear to me ..i can be wrong ... show me where please

the only thing i could think of now is that there is some other info, contact closure, signal from the ignition lock, or somewhere else coming while twisting the key to ign-on which would engage or enable the immob circuit inside the instrument cluster to turn on the rf ... i do not get any rf at the coil when turning the key anymore and the wiring from the cluster to the sender / reader coil including the coil itself seems good

this brings me to the point that i want to mail my ecu to a TRUSTWORTHY shop to delete the immob config

there a millions of shops dealing with earlier type of ecus, but when it comes to my 2009 car with a "EDC 17CP14 3.3" all options dwindle down to just a few ... maybe i'm not good at googling for them

who is now willing to ship (mail) a $ 1000 working ecu which is matched to the rest of my car to any shop without recommendation or other forms of trust ... it's not the $ 1000 of the ecu, it's the replacement cost in total if anything goes wrong and you are forced to crawl on your knees to the all-mighty local vw dealership and beg for fixing it at this point in the game ... i'm not too much up for it, really ... for sure not yet

i hope i was able to introduce hereby myself as well as wolfee my car with all it's, to me known, history and i fulfill herewith the requirement as a first time forum member

thanks and cheers Klaus alias EinHexenMeister

yeah ... forgot that i took a log at the very 1st diag run ... now included

again, if anyone is interested in getting pics and more explanation in my diag quest, i have them, but dropped the though of publishing them anywhere, since i didn't succeed which was caused by companies like megamos not providing datasheets for it's product ... all electronics companies, really all usually publish the pinout and some basic signal description on its pins along wits very basic application circuitry reference design suggestions ... i understand ... blah blah encryption blah blah, but where to hook up the coil, over which pin do u submit data, etc

simply stupid ... if i want to find out more to really steal a bunch of cars, i spend the time and hook up a scope and analyze every node in the circuit and then i go and steal a bunch of cars on an industrial scale ... this just prevents the guy who wants to detect and fix a broken part in the circuit to succeed without weeks of research
 

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Super Moderator
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9,468 Posts
sorry for not understanding the forum rules ... i'll try to introduce myself and the issue i'm having, but this will be a lengthy one
Its a simple request you don't have to post your problem that's what you've done in this post.

Paying for premium doesn't mean anything now as members with 1 post ask questions in exclusive write ups.

VAG Error Code: 02513


Fault Location:
Belt Force Sensor for Seat Occupied Recognition (G453) - Mechanical Failure

Possible Cause:
Seat Belt Buckle jammed (too much Force recognized).
Check mechanical condition of components.
Seat Belt Buckle faulty.

Possible Solutions:
Check/Replace Seat Belt Buckle.
Check for Objects that could jam the Seat Belt Buckle.

VAG Error Code: 02635


Fault Location:
Tuner not Enabled/Activated (Radio/Navigation Display Control Module (J503) Radio (J503)) - Intermittent

Possible Cause:
Digital Satellite Tuner in Demo Mode.

Digital Satellite Tuner not enabled.
XM/Sirius not activated.

Special Notes:
This fault code is only a note, it will disappear once the XM/Sirius Subscription is renewed.

VAG Error Code: 00928


Fault Location:
Locking Module for Central Locking: Front Drivers Side (F220) - Implausible Signal

Possible Cause:
Door Locks not working properly.

Wiring/Connector(s) from/to Locking Module for Central Locking: Front Driver Side (F220) faulty.
Voltage Supply for Locking Module for Central Locking: Front Driver Side (F220) faulty.
Door Lock Mechanics are stiff/partially seized.
Locking Module for Central Locking: Front Driver Side (F220) faulty.

Possible Solutions:
Check/Replace Wiring/Connector(s) from/to Locking Module for Central Locking: Front Driver Side (F220).
Read Measuring Value Blocks (MVB)
Check voltage supply to driver's door control unit or to door main connector (lower left footwell).
Check Door Lock Mechanics/Operation.
Check Locking Module for Central Locking: Front Driver Side (F220).

VAG Error Code: 00105


Fault Location:
Signal Central Locking SAVE/LOCK: Drivers Side - Implausible Signal

Possible Cause:
Central Locking not working properly.

Wiring/Connector(s).
Locking Module for Central Locking: Front Driver Side (F220) faulty.

Possible Solutions:
Check/Replace all faulty Wiring/Connector(s).
Check Locking Module for Central Locking: Front Driver Side (F220).
Read Measuring Value Blocks (MVB).


VAG Error Code: 00100


Fault Location:
Drivers Interior Locking Button (E308) - Electrical Fault in Circuit/Implausible Signal

Possible Cause:
Wiring/Connector(s).
Drivers Interior Locking Button (E308).

Possible Solutions:
Check/Replace all faulty Wiring/Connector(s).
Read Measuring Value Blocks (MVB).

VAG Error Code: 02483


Fault Location:
Module for Locking of Rear Lid (F327) - Electrical Fault in Circuit

Possible Cause:
Wiring/Connector(s).
Module for Locking of Rear Lid (F327).

Possible Solutions:
Check/Replace all faulty Wiring/Connector(s).
Read Measuring Value Blocks (MVB).
011,0 Tailgate
011,1 Left Motor (V399)
011,2 Right Motor (V398)
011,3 Limit Switches, Closing Aid (F332) & (F333)
011,4 Tailgate Switch (F206)

VAG Error Code: 01038


Fault Location:
Central Locking Thermal Protection (Central Electronics Control Module (CECM) (J519)) - Intermittent

Possible Cause:
Central Locking not working (partly).

Wiring/Connector(s) from/to Door Locks faulty.
Door Lock(s) stiff.

Possible Solutions:
Check/Replace Wiring/Connector(s) from/to Door Locks.
Check Door Lock(s).
Read Measuring Value Blocks (MVB).

VAG Error Code: 02214


Fault Location:
Tyre Pressure Warning - Lower Limit Exceeded

Possible Cause:
Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL)(K83) active.

Tyre Pressure Monitoring found a low pressure.
Even though the tyre pressures where checked and topped up and the SET button pressed this error code still logs in the ecu.

Possible Solutions:
Just clear the Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) and everything should be ok.
It will be logged again in the ecu if the Tyre Pressure Warning Light comes back on.
Reset Tyre Pressure Monitoring.

VAG Error Code: 02214


Fault Location:
Tyre Pressure Warning - Defective

Possible Cause:
Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL)(K83) active.

Tyre Pressure Monitoring not working.

Possible Solutions:
Reset Tyre Pressure Monitoring.

Special Notes:
When found in Seat Exeo (3R): Tyre Pressure Monitoring II, perform System Reset.
Press/Hold the Tyre Pressure Monitoring Button (E226) for at least 5 Seconds to Reset the Calibration.
Clear/check Fault Codes.
Switch the Ignition OFF.
Check/correct the Tyre Pressure.
Switch the Ignition ON.
Press/Hold the Tyre Pressure Monitoring Button (E226) for at least 5 Seconds to Reset the Calibration again until the Tyre Pressure Monitoring Lamp in the Instrument Cluster briefly lights up.
When found in VW Golf (1K) or similar: Brake Electronics (MK60), perform System Reset.
When found in VW Golf (1K) or similar: Brake Electronics (MK70), perform System Reset.
When found in VW Passat (3C): Brake Electronics, perform System Reset.

VAG Error Code: 00446


Fault Location:
Function Limitation Due to Under-Voltage - Lower Limit Exceeded

Possible Cause:
Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL)(K83) active.

Fuse(s).
Wiring/Connector(s).
Supply Voltage low.
Battery faulty.
Generator faulty.

Possible Solutions:
Check/Replace Fuse(s).
Check/Replace all faulty Wiring/Connector(s).
Read Measuring Value Blocks (MVB).
Check Supply Voltage.
Check/Replace Battery.
Check/Replace Generator.


As taken from my new Free EOBD II Error Codes software
 

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Premium Member
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4 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
friends :

i'm writing about all this since i assume that others might have a similar situation and will benefit from my experiences doing so

received today my spare / backup ecu and my plan is to have the immob deleted from my stock ecu and afterwards this ecu cloned into the spare / backup ecu of same type ... what i'm also thinking is if there is a way that the tuning shop can provide me with a data file containing this cloned data, in case that for unforeseen circumstances both ecus get damaged and a tuning shop would be able to load it onto another ecu at a later time ... it's always good practice to have a backup and usually 2 of them from a data perspective

i would therefor have a few assumptions and questions for the tuning shop

once the immob is deleted, the engine will run and the car can be driven, even the instrument cluster flags an immob failure which can not be cleared since the immob failure persists

for clarity, the instrument cluster detects the immobilizer failure and as long as this failure persists it can not be cleared (obviously) ... this failure gets via CAN-bus communicated to the ecu, which will as result to this CAN-bus immob failure message not allow the engine to run longer than a couple seconds ... the enabled (not deleted) immobilizer functionality in the ecu is responsible for this restriction of the engine not continuing to run
once the immob functionality (engine running restriction) is deleted in the ecu, the engine keeps running

all other immob restrictions and failure messages inside the instrument cluster will continue as long as the immob failure itself is not fixed an the err cleared inside the instrument cluster (my assumption)

despite the deleted immob in the ecu, the instrument cluster will still continue to display all the error conditions via lit led and the "immob active" message ... just for curiosity, will this message prevent other messages from being displayed, like selected navigation or mpg fuel consumption information or does it overrule most other displayed messages (since it's a warning or error message)

even if it overrules other info, it provides mobility to the car to be driven again (maybe to a dealer or repair shop if decided)

in case that this effects any other major issues, one can think of, it would be nice to hear about it

Kermatdi pointed out that the pairing of a phone to the radio might me an issue ... not an issue for me

Kermatdi also pointed out : there are other consequences of an unhappy immob, which we do not address

why not address them, if it's not too much to ask, others might benefit from this info as well ... what would those perhaps be and can they be mostly neglected as compared to the newly gained drive-ability

this mobility will help 2 fold ... once it buys time to fix the immob failure detected by the instrument cluster and 2nd it prevents you from getting stranded in the middle of nowhere for the same sad immob reason

now a few minor questions for immob delete inside the ecu followed by ecu cloning to a spare / backup ecu

is it necessary to open the ecu to get the whole process started (e.g. activate boot signal)

can i get a soft copy of the cloned data in form of a file in assumed some binary format so that the tuner will be able to clone it to another ecu at a later time ... also in case that the used 2nd backup ecu had a hw issue (used) i'm not aware of and it would show upon testing in my car

for curiosity, what sw tools do u use to perform the delete and coning (at age 70 i'm REALLY NOT interested to get into this type of business)

i would perhaps like to have KermaTDI perform above mentioned work since they seem to be technically a very qualified source to do this and maybe they could also be so nice answer again some of my questions above

if any other forum user or shop wants to point out another source for doing the work it would benefit all of us to know

i would be really looking forward to post a successful immob delete and ecu clone experience ... all this electronics and sw dependence is one endless night mare

cheers Klaus
 
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