[Pracidea]

Hi All:
My brothers 2002 VW Jetta TDI just died on the spot a couple of days ago (230,000 km)
He said he was driving when he encountered an instant loss of power ... no sputter, or chugging, no slow decrease in power ... Instant death!
Before that, the engine was really strong.
Multiple attempts to restart showed no signs of life ... turning over showed lots of compression.
Lotsa fuel in the tank and battery was strong.
Finally had to be towed to a shop (not a dealer).
Mechanic has not been able to determine the problem yet.
I suspect the injector pump.
Any advise is welcome and urgently needed.
Thanks, Troy

 

[Wir3D]

Check relay 109. This is a black relay that should be replaced with the updated gray relay 109. It's under the steering wheel trim and controls power. Is the timing belt gone? When was the timing belt last changed? If it slipped 1 tooth it might still work but the timing will be messed up.

If you loosen the fuel injector lines a little and the rag gets wet, you know you're getting fuel.

Check the anti shudder valve: http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/a4/clean-intake-manifold-VW-TDI-carbon.htm, it could have broken shut.

 

[Pracidea]

Hi Wir3D:
Thanks a lot for that info.
At least we have something to go on now.
Take care, Troy

P.S. Other replies are still welcome ... where's "Chitty" when you need 'im ?!

 

[chittychittybangbang]

Hi Wir3D:
Thanks a lot for that info.
At least we have something to go on now.
Take care, Troy

P.S. Other replies are still welcome ... where's "Chitty" when you need 'im ?!

I replaced my brakes today and then ran some errands. I have other stuff to do as well

Relay 109 is very suspect here. It does not throw any codes and after it cools down after 10-20 minutes, it normally works again until it overheats. If the injection pump is bad it should be throwing major codes.

 

[Pracidea]

Okay ... here's the latest.
The car got towed from the regular mechanic to a diesel machanic in the Toronto area.
He is told that the piston rings are gone.
My brother says that the car always started well and seemed to have decent power.
My brothers wife (it's her car) says that at times the car did seem to lag in power from time to time.
The car did not produce excessive smoke.
The car had a decent idling speed.
Mt brother says the car seemed to be working fine until it suddenly stopped.
Anyway, for $1200 the mechanic sasy he'll replace the piston rings.
The mechanic reported compression on all four to be between 200 and 225 psi.
My brother told me he has the oil changed once per year ... and then mumbled something about 13,000km when I asked him he he put more than 10k on the car per year.
I recommended he find another diesel mechanic and talk to him to get a second opinion.
I also recommended he jump on this forum ... he did neither.
(I'm the younger brother so my advise is often ignored)
The diesel mechanic has commenced work and the car will be ready tomorrow (i.e. Thur dec 8) with new piston rings installed.
Can bad piston rings actually cause the abovr symptoms?
Can Piston rings actually be changed so quickly?
Perhaps someone more expert than myself can educate me.
Thanks, Troy
P.S. Hey Chitty ... I was just giving you a hard time ... thanks for your response anyway

 

[chittychittybangbang]

Hm.....that is low enough compression so that it's out of spec. A good compression is 400-550. Do not try to add oil to do a wet test. That works on gas cars but on a diesel it will cause combustion because diesels run on oil. I would think that it would also cause harder starting in cold weather.

Cheap dino engine oil could cause the rings to stick and require replacement or at least removal and cleaning but that is really low compression. Not sure how fast the rings could be changed but I suppose if they had all the parts, why not.

In any case, please post a follow up if the new rings fix the problem.

 

[Pracidea]

It was the timing belt!

Thanks Chitty:

Just finished talking with the bro.
I was highly suspect of the diagnosis of engine compression (from bad piston rings) causing an instant engine stop.
I mean, a SUDDEN engine stop would require a SUDDEN failure of some part or system.
Piston ring wear just does not fit within that category in that piston ring wear occurs as a graudal process albeit accelerated if proper maintenance is not performed.
From my understanding, bad compression due to piston ring wear would show a number of symptoms such as difficulty starting, poor idle, permanent power loss, excessive oil consumption, smokey exhaust ... just to name a few.
Also, the engine seemed to be quite healthy before instant shut down.

Well, it seems like perhaps the diesel mechanic is on the straight & narrow after all.
He contacted my brother and gave him the final results ... the Timing belt slipped a couple of teeth.
Not enough to cause valve contact though.

It is abvious now why the compression was so low since TDC and valve timing were out of sync.
The repair and replacement cost will be $700 (Canadian) ... which is probably not too bad considering.
Anyway, the timing belt was just changed in the summer and the diesel mechanic said it was not done properly and that also the belt was not of the best quality.

The timing belt and all components within the belt circuit will be replaced.
I'll keep everyone posted ... perhaps one more write up should conclude the matter.

Thanks, Troy

 

[Fluid]

The timing belt can move but are they 100% sure there wasn't any valve contact? Unless it slips at the injection pump and not the camshaft, there normally is. If there was, the valves can be weakened and fail and trash the engine later. If the mechanic is willing to put a warranty on it, I would ask for an extended warranty on this service because normally there's only a 90 day warranty. This thing could last 1 year and fail later. If it lasts a year it should be good.

If the camshaft and crankshaft TDC marks are spot on BEFORE removing the belt, all is good. If they have moved, which sounds likely, valve contact is likely. A couple of teeth would do it. There are pictures of damaged lifters in this writeup: http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/a4/cylinder-head-removal-ALH-TDI-engine.htm

 

[schimmerb]

When my Tb was replaced, the mech told me of a belt he found which matched all these descriptions. Car died on highway after running well with no warnings. He found the belt stripped a couple teeth and the only thing out of timing was the fuel. No failures on that engine but he was lucky.