why biodiesel instead of WVO (waste vegetable oil)

Discussion in 'Biodiesel general' started by chittychittybangbang, Jun 25, 2007.

  1. chittychittybangbang

    chittychittybangbang Administrator

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    first, the kits available aren't that great. This thread at frybrid explains some of the shortcomings of the commercially available kits. It explains how some of the WVO kit retailers are charging you about 50% markup on their off the shelf parts, throwing in some custom parts and packaging it. They have the right to charge you more, and as a customer, you have the right to find better prices for the same quality.

    http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=270

    This company does have better kits than the others but they are also expensive.

    Also, WVO is known for clogging and being thick. This is not appropriate for reliability at the levels of biodiesel. It will work and work fine for years if you use high quality fuel, but it's too tempting to skip steps and use lower quality fuel.

    With biodiesel, if you skip steps, it won't turn out right and you won't (or at least you shouldn't) use it.

    Reliability overall is still out for debate. It's still not proven 100% one way or another. For that reason, WVO conversions aren't featured on the FAQ pages. Biodiesel, however is 100% proven to be suitable, reliable, and works on diesels up to the pumpe duse technogy. The word is still out on using 100% biodiesel with pumpe duse, small percentages are approved by VW and ar definitely good for the engine.
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  2. chittychittybangbang

    chittychittybangbang Administrator

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  3. OM617

    OM617 New Member

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    Here is the primary reason not to use any kind of WVO/SVO: It's not a fuel.

    Biodiesel is made from the start to become a fuel. WVO/SVO was/is only made to cook food.
  4. chittychittybangbang

    chittychittybangbang Administrator

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    I agree with you partially. WVO can be fuel, but not a very good fuel for modern diesels. Then again, so can dirty engine oil, but if you're burning enough engine oil ,then you have other things to worry abou! This site is mostly VW oriented, but all diesels are welcome because it's an opportunity to share technology and knowledge. The 1000 answered questions at www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q.htm is a reliable source of information about turbocharging, diesel basics, etc., and I included nothing about WVO because biodiesel is a far superior fuel in emissions, injection pump stress, useability, etc.
    This keeps the 1000q "FAQ" reliable and leaves hot topics to the forums.
  5. biopete

    biopete New Member

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    WVO systems
    WVO is fuel

    WVO will carry you down the road at 100+ mph smoother than diesel fuel and as smooth as biodiesel : ) if that is not a fuel I do not know what is. The potential is definitely there in the TDIs and many diesels. If Rudolph Diesel quit when he had problems where would any of us be? Even if 10,000 TDIs are killed before the perfect system is found, would that be unreasonable. Thousands of animals are killed and tortured testing medicine and products we use every day. Testing engines to run healthy enviro friendly fuel is a good thing. You just have to be careful.

    Oh man and if you ever work on a fuel system with grease it is much better than diesel . You get it on your hands and it is a skin conditioner rather than a toxic cancer causing irritant that diesel fuel is. A big plus. I hate to work on fuel systems with diesel in them.

    chitty, You left Elsbett.com of your list of systems. They are probably the best system out there. They have been running diesels on vegetable oil for 20+ years and built there own direct injection engine to run SVO.

    A brief overview of types of wvo systems having seen the manufactured systems including elsbett and made several of my own:

    All Hot WVO systems are the same in principle: They heat the oil up tho 170 or 180 and you burn it. It does not matter how it gets hot and there are a million ways to do it and it can be done with a 1600.00 Frybrid kit or a few hundred bucks in hardware and some old junk just as well. The quality is in the components and the install and the operator. Personally, my kits on my TDIs i get the valves from Frybrid, the tank that golden fuel systems uses from a boat store, the tank heat exchanger frybrid uses from the aquamarine store, the switch from greasecar, aluminum tube to make my own hose in hose, and initially a vegtherm from Plantdrive.com. Took that off for fear of too much heat . It is just heating the oil. no modifications to engine in any way. I had problems after 13,000 miles with this system. Unburned fuel in cylinders. I caught it before any noticable damage was done and replaced injectors and started using canola. Now no unburned fuel in cylinders.

    Now German companies like elsbett do single tank systems. They only recommend Canola oil , new or like new quality in TDIs or any car. Elsbett adjust the injection pop pressure up 10 bar on the tdi injectors. They do not have special injectors for TDI as i believed. They adjust the glow system to stay on until the water temperature hits 65C and they give you a heated filter. They also give bigger fuel supply line and rubber hose. The injector adjustment and oil is key i believe.

    For a TDI, if you buy a kit, definitely by the elsbett. You can add a heated tank later if you want a two tank system. But you probably don't want that. if you make your own, try to get injectors adjusted. I know it is a 10bar increase but not sure if that is on both pre and post injection.

    cheers
  6. MAXRPM

    MAXRPM New Member

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    I would not do a Frankestain experiment with my TDI cars, by using Biodiesel, or WVO or any other fuel alternative.

    I have read and seen pics, of TDI cars with shot engines, becuse of using alternatives fuels, I think and believe that these cars were made to run on D2,, Iam sure we are getting closer to find an alternative fuel( not quite there yet) , at this moment I would not put my cars for a guinea pig experiment.

    and to close this off,with all the respect for those using alternative fuel if you are happy with it, go for it..Happy TDIing.
  7. ArkRoyal

    ArkRoyal New Member

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    I read a report from a company in Germany that did tests on WVO. They concluded to prevent the kinds of problems the the poor guy had who's engine heads are featured in http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/biodiesel/biodiesel.htm you have to inject the WVO into the engine at a temp of 150C. That is a little over 300 F. 180 is good enough for the injection pump but it's not enough for the complete combustion of the oil.

    I don't have a VW but I do have a new to me 1984 Benz 300sd turbo. I am bouncing back and forth between converting it to WVO or making a biodiesel system. I really wish I had some idea of how hot I can get the injection pump before the seals melt. I do think I can get the oil to well over 150 C by running a coil in the exhaust pipe. Or even using pencil type glow plugs in the fuel system, glow plugs get real hot and will last a long time if they are constantly immersed in oil. The problem I see with using a coil in the exhaust is over heating the oil. This could be solved with multiple taps off the coil but what do you do about the coil that doesn't have fuel flowing through it any more. It would probably burn in the coil and plug it up.

    I am going to conduct some tests with pencil glow plugs and see how long it takes to get a set volume of oil from 180 to 300 F using a glow plug. I have read that a pencil tpe glow plug get as hot as 1000 degrees C or 1832 degrees F, that's REAL HOT. If I can't get the temp of the oil up fast enough I will go with biodiesel. If I can I think I will have a good WVO system. The real question is how long does it take a given volume of oil, say 10ml, at 180 degrees F to reach 300 degrees F in the presence of a 1832 degree heat source? I don't think it will take long.

    And yes I know I have an indirect injection engine and it is much more forgiving then a direct injection engine but why pull on the dragons tail?
  8. GSP9587

    GSP9587 New Member

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    Biodiesel from home

    I haven't had any issues making biodiesel in my garage. I chose this over making modifications to my vehicles. I have made over 2000 gallons and run them through my F250, 1986 Jetta, 1982 300SD MB and now my 2001 Jetta TDI, over the last 3 yrs. The two older vehicles had the fuel line problem, but that is cheap and easy to fix. I make it for about 50 cents a gallon, so in the Jetta thats about a penny a mile. I would be happy to help, via phone calls and internet, anyone who wants to try and make their own. DOn't spend 2-3K on the pre built units, I already nickled and dimed myself finding the best way to do this...I would be happy to share.
    Rj marks likes this.
  9. knutter

    knutter New Member

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    Biodiesel is not a Frankenstein experiment

    To MAXRPM above - Biodiesel is not a Frankenstein experiment. There is a service station just down the road from me that sells B2 - B20 and you can order up to B100 from a distributor a few miles away. VW released a statement that up to B5 in it's new TDIs is ok. "Alternative" doesn't always have to mean "scary" or unfounded. :)

    We've all seen the shot engines from running poorly processed or unheated WVO/SVO, but biodiesel is not the same and we should make that clear. I haven't seen or heard of anything - other than possibly some minor hose change-outs - being necessary to run biodiesel. A friend of mine has run bio in her 04 Jetta for years. In the summer she runs B100 and in winter B20, I think. (She lives in a cold climate).
  10. brucebanes

    brucebanes New Member

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    If you used WVO you will notice the residue is sticky when the container is empty. The WVO/VO advocates claim if you heat it up and send it to the engine it will burn up and leave through the exhaust. I doubt this and they are reports that WVO gets in the crankcase and turns the oil into sludge ruining the engine. My issues are is it really healthy to send 190F oil into the engine? Can the seals handle it? Can you get up to the necessary temp in the first place? I used WVO and know others that use it and most have/had problems running Bio eliminiates the mess of WVO and turns it into a decent fuel that does not require thinning and cleans it up.
  11. Sporto55

    Sporto55 New Member

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    The original Diesel engine was designed to run on peanut oil. So in theory WVO is closer to "diesel fuel" than anything derived from petroleum.

    I drove a 2000 Jetta with a Greasecar WVO kit for 165,000 miles. It's still going great.
  12. brucebanes

    brucebanes New Member

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    That is a myth in Peanut Oil. If you run a diesel on straight Peanut Oil it would not last long. That is why your Greasecar kit heats it up to thin it out. I did the WVO thing for a while but I can't maintain the WVO quality like I should. If you have a place where it can sit for months to dry out, where you can filter it down to the level you need to then it might work. I have seen many more failures on WVO and a couple of successes. Congrats on 165,000.
  13. Sporto55

    Sporto55 New Member

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    Well Wikipedia says the original Diesel engine ran on peanut oil. If you have a citation that proves that wrong, you should correct this page:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Diesel
  14. brucebanes

    brucebanes New Member

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    Actually it does not say that. It says "he was interested in using coal dust and vegtable oil" and a search on Peanut oil says that at the 1909 Paris exhibition the Otto company demonstrated that the diesel engine CAN run on vegtable oil. Yes it can for a little while. It can run on gas for a little while also.

    If the germans could run their tanks and trucks on peanut oil in WWIi they would have but they have the same problem we do today with it.

    Vegtable oil is a bad fuel althoug workable. Waste Vegtable oil even worse. Make good quality bio mixed with Kero that is the optimal fuel.
  15. brucebanes

    brucebanes New Member

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    why no WVO area?

    You want to keep the greasers out?
  16. trev0006

    trev0006 Member

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    They must have smelled very good then :)





  17. lbcstyle

    lbcstyle New Member

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    I have over 180,000 miles in 3 years of driving on WVO in my 1997 jetta, not a single problem, I only had to replace my glow plugs twice rather then once. either way it has saved me and my wife who runs a 2000 jetta TDI, over $11,000 per year in Fuel costs over the lat 3 years. Long Live the WVO. It may not be for everyone but I do have 10+ years experience as a mechanic. Seriously though no problems, I rebuild my MK3 1.9 Diesel AAZ engine at 500,000km, took it all apart to find that it was super clean almost like new, no sludge at all anywhere.

    Biodiesel seems dangerous and it takes long time to produce.
  18. BigBob

    BigBob New Member

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    WVO debate

    One absolute truism about WVO is that trace amounts of it in your engine oil WILL cause polimerization (coagulation) of engine oil. This is potentially a very serious problem remediated by using premium quality synthetic oil and frequent (3500 mi.) oil changes. As to the issue of unburned residues; this matter is addressed when one "Purges" the system prior to shutdown. In this proceedure a clever use of selenoids allows you to backflush the veg fuel line with diesel while shutting down on conventional fuel. Thus, there should be no raw WVO residue left in the engine on shutdown. A more thorough "purge" of 1 min. duration is an even better safeguard. Also, like anything, cleaner fuel means happier engines. I do a final WVO cold filter at 1 micron to remove FAA's and animal fat, the stuff that's semi solid at room temp. The stuff is as nasty to the plumbing of your car as it is your circulatory system. Biodiesel is great stuff but has some draw backs as well. If you have run conventional diesel for a while, watch out when changing over. BD will disolve scale (particulate "plaquing") from fuel lines pump and injectors which can be troublesome. On the (way) upside, it DOES tend to keep injectors much cleaner, boost performance as well as better protect the environment. Chip and injector upgrades also play well for WVO conversions as there is a roughly 10-13% drop in performance (power and mileage) as well as increased carbon (soot) output with WVO as a fuel. These two upgrades are helpful as is the occasional on ramp rev out to clean the vanes of your turbo. I know I'm preaching to the choir when I say this but these engines don't like to be lugged, a little more 'windout" with shifts at/over 3000 RPM's is advisable particulary with WVO as a fuel. I have 50K on a WVO system with a total of 137K on the car with no ill affects to any systems. I love flipping the "man" at the gas pump (I burn approx. $30 of diesel/mo.@ $4.80/gal). If I only get 250K mi. out of the car rather than 350K, I see it as my contribution to reducing my carbon footprint. I can replace the car, we can't replace the atmosphere we pollute on such a massive scale. So much for techno-snobery and what's best and for what purpose.

    Food for thought
  19. ablecha

    ablecha New Member

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    I wouldn't use WVO in a TDI. My wife's New Beetle only gets diesel fuel. My '79 Mercedes 240D is a different story. I actually mix WVO with diesel in the tank and run it on that. The old engine isn't that sensitive to "odd" fuels. The TDI will never have that fuel in it, I have seen too much "gunk" build up in the Mercedes to make me think that I won't ruin a TDI.
  20. tabascom16

    tabascom16 New Member

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    I had run it for a while in a 6.9L Ford diesel. It ran fine but I wondered what this white coating was inside my steel fuel lines. Something in old fryer oil reacts with steel and makes a white looking polymer that is really hard to eliminate. After sticking some old fryer oil in a steel drum for storage and it turning into a snow globe with the polymer I quit using WVO.

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