2010 Golf TDI 60-75 mph vibration/shaking

[Type_TDI]

Originally Posted by froudeg

From what you describe, i suspect it's one of 2 things...

The car is not very old so i doubt very much this problem is related to the deterioration of any rubber bushes.

This oscillation you talk about -is it a sort of metal resonating noise, somewhat highish pitched and constant?

If so i suspect one your wheel bearings is damaged or on the way out - I have seen damaged wheel bearings which show no play at all when you do the wheel wobble test but are faulty and cause vibration or unusual sounds - when you get the bearing/hub assembly out and move it with your hands, it will feel/sound scratchy instead of smooth.

The other thing which brings about these sort of symptoms is a slightly sticking brake caliper guide pin. I would have a look at the guide pins - take them out, clean off any crud/rubber debris and grease them up with copper grease before putting them back in. Whilst there ensure the pads are seated properly in the caliper housing.

If the guide pins are sticking a bit the brake pads can rub slightly and with the fact that brake rotors are rarely perfectly flat you will get a noticable vibration - especially at speed, sometimes accompanied with an oscillating noise like you describe.

Froudeg,

Thanks for the other ideas I can try, I'll have the wheels off tonight and will check these items. I also have a feeling it's a bearing but I don't hear much of a noise, perhaps a faint start of a similar failed bearing noise.

[xeno555]

If your tired of wasting your time, you could always get a "road force balance". That will probably "fix" your issue.

[Type_TDI]

Originally Posted by froudeg

From what you describe, i suspect it's one of 2 things...

The car is not very old so i doubt very much this problem is related to the deterioration of any rubber bushes.

This oscillation you talk about -is it a sort of metal resonating noise, somewhat highish pitched and constant?

If so i suspect one your wheel bearings is damaged or on the way out - I have seen damaged wheel bearings which show no play at all when you do the wheel wobble test but are faulty and cause vibration or unusual sounds - when you get the bearing/hub assembly out and move it with your hands, it will feel/sound scratchy instead of smooth.

The other thing which brings about these sort of symptoms is a slightly sticking brake caliper guide pin. I would have a look at the guide pins - take them out, clean off any crud/rubber debris and grease them up with caliper (silicone based) grease before putting them back in (dont use copper grease as it can damage the rubber). Whilst there ensure the pads are seated properly in the caliper housing.

If the guide pins are sticking a bit the brake pads can rub slightly and with the fact that brake rotors are rarely perfectly flat you will get a noticable vibration - especially at speed, sometimes accompanied with an oscillating noise like you describe.

Originally Posted by xeno555

If your tired of wasting your time, you could always get a "road force balance". That will probably "fix" your issue.

Xeno555,

Thanks, two of the four sets of tires/rims I've tried we're road force balanced where the other two sets were just a normal balance. Are you talking about a balance where the wheels are on the car and under load? Sounds expensive

[froudeg]

Just to add to this - i notice you say it feels like its coming from all over the chassis, and in the steering wheel and the seat.

It's hard to tell if its actually coming from the steering wheel when you feel it all over the chassis.....usually a vibration from all over the chassis, especially one thats felt through the seat is a problem with the rear of the car.

This could be rear wheel bearings, rear suspension bushes, damaged control arms or a severe alignment issue (camber or toe badly out).

Problems with the front wheels/suspension/alignment usually are felt far more in the steering wheel than anywhere else - if it feels like the whole car is shaking/vibrating (especially when coasting in neutral, pretty much ruling out engine mounts etc) i would concentrate on looking at the rear.

[xeno555]

Originally Posted by Type_TDI

Xeno555,

Thanks, two of the four sets of tires/rims I've tried we're road force balanced where the other two sets were just a normal balance. Are you talking about a balance where the wheels are on the car and under load? Sounds expensive

Yes it is pricey. Also when you remove the wheel (one that has been road force balancing (RFB)) without marking the position on the hub/rotor, you run the risk of making worse. This is because RFB balances all rotating mass per wheel.

You could view your car (wheels) from another car while someone drives yours @ 65 MPH and see if any of the wheels looks bent or wobbly.

Another thought, you said you tried many rims/tire combos. Did you ensure that the correct rotation of the tires are followed correctly. Correct tire pressure also.

[Type_TDI]

Originally Posted by froudeg

Just to add to this - i notice you say it feels like its coming from all over the chassis, and in the steering wheel and the seat.

It's hard to tell if its actually coming from the steering wheel when you feel it all over the chassis.....usually a vibration from all over the chassis, especially one thats felt through the seat is a problem with the rear of the car.

This could be rear wheel bearings, rear suspension bushes, damaged control arms or a severe alignment issue (camber or toe badly out).

Problems with the front wheels/suspension/alignment usually are felt far more in the steering wheel than anywhere else - if it feels like the whole car is shaking/vibrating (especially when coasting in neutral, pretty much ruling out engine mounts etc) i would concentrate on looking at the rear.

Froudeg:
I think you're right about it being something in the rear, there really isn't much forced rotation in the steering wheel, just the chassis vibration that is felt all over the car. I'm measuring the rims, tires and brake calipers with a dial indication this afternoon, that should show what is out of round.

Originally Posted by xeno555

Yes it is pricey. Also when you remove the wheel (one that has been road force balancing (RFB)) without marking the position on the hub/rotor, you run the risk of making worse. This is because RFB balances all rotating mass per wheel.

You could view your car (wheels) from another car while someone drives yours @ 65 MPH and see if any of the wheels looks bent or wobbly.

Another thought, you said you tried many rims/tire combos. Did you ensure that the correct rotation of the tires are followed correctly. Correct tire pressure also.

Xeno555, Thanks, I'd only had the rims/tires road forced balanced and haven't tried the on-car balance. After I make sure the rims/tires/brake discs are true today, I'll try to figure out if that balance is necessary. The vibration I have is so great, it's got to be more than a balance issue (unless they REALLY f'ed up the balance). That's a good idea to have someone else spot the tires.

I did check tire pressure on all of the other tires I've tried.

[Type_TDI]

After taking a few dial caliper measurements this afternoon, I was able to find at least part of the problem. I took measurements of the lateral and radial runout of each rim, as well as radial runout measurements of the brake rotors.

The rims in the front seem to be in-spec with the greatest runout measurement being 10/1000". Both front brake rotors were less than 3/1000" radial runout, so no problems there. As far as I know, the limit is around 30/1000" for normal passenger cars. If you're running low profile tires you probably should expect 10/1000".

Upon measuring the two rear rims, there were clearly some issues. Passenger side rear rim had a good 20/1000" or more lateral runout and the radial runout was 40/1000" or more, so pretty much bent. The brake rotor was fine showing only 3-4/1000" of radial runout.

The drivers side rear rim was about the the same, only the radial runout was 50/1000" or more, even worse.

There are a few video's below showing the measurements, in one of the video's you can clearly see the bend in the driver rear rim as the wheel rotates. You'll hear a scratching noise from the dial indicator rubbing on the inside of the rim, so there isn't something terribly wrong with the bearings. You may also hear a few swear words. In fact, it's probably best to just mute the audio unless you like listening to something similar to nails on a chalkboard

I'll take it for a drive and see how much better it feels. Now I'm wondering whether I should bother to see if the dealership will help replace them, I doubt they will. Since they had three people drive it and all reported "no vibration" last week, I'm wondering what this evidence would do, other than piss them off.

What confuses me is why the vibration was there with the other rim/tire sets I tried. The only thing that's been corrected since then is the alignment, but I don't think it was THAT off.


Passenger rear lateral runout:

http://youtu.be/8IWD3_Tjmsc

Passenger rear radial runout:

http://youtu.be/SQYunVUPY-U

Driver's rear visual inspection:

http://youtu.be/z6dePxbqChc

Driver's rear radial runout:

http://youtu.be/Nd-ZAF_x1Tc

[chittychittybangbang]

As they say, you can balance a square tire but that doesn't mean it'll roll smoothly. They may say you caused road damage to wheels if they're bent. Also, bits of dirt can often bake into the inside of the rim. If the wheel wasn't dirty I could see it hitting some glued on road junk.

[Joe Golf]

I have read this string with interest. My 2012 Golf has a very noticeable vibration between 28-45 MPH with mild to heavy throttle. The vibration mabifests itself only when traveling straight. In a turn the vibration diminishes to the background movements of the vehicle.
So far I have balanced then switched wheels without much change. The dealer put in a new drive axle which may have helped some. At first the dealer claimed they could not dupicate until we went for a ride. I knw this 10,000 mile car so well that I can reproduce the vibration at will. Most days I just drive around it, ie soft peddle through the zone and drive on. It is most noticeable on the on-ramp to an expressway.

Car goes back to the dealer this weekend for an extended stay. Too bad I like the car but will not accept it as is and have said as much to the dealer.

[Type_TDI]

Originally Posted by chittychittybangbang

As they say, you can balance a square tire but that doesn't mean it'll roll smoothly. They may say you caused road damage to wheels if they're bent. Also, bits of dirt can often bake into the inside of the rim. If the wheel wasn't dirty I could see it hitting some glued on road junk.

Chitty, haha, I like the square tire analogy, so true. The wheels in the back were relatively clean with no goop, plus you could visible see the bend in one of the videos.

Originally Posted by Joe Golf

I have read this string with interest. My 2012 Golf has a very noticeable vibration between 28-45 MPH with mild to heavy throttle. The vibration mabifests itself only when traveling straight. In a turn the vibration diminishes to the background movements of the vehicle.
So far I have balanced then switched wheels without much change. The dealer put in a new drive axle which may have helped some. At first the dealer claimed they could not dupicate until we went for a ride. I knw this 10,000 mile car so well that I can reproduce the vibration at will. Most days I just drive around it, ie soft peddle through the zone and drive on. It is most noticeable on the on-ramp to an expressway.

Car goes back to the dealer this weekend for an extended stay. Too bad I like the car but will not accept it as is and have said as much to the dealer.

Joe Golf: Sounds like my symptoms exactly only mine occurs at 60+ mph. Through my current analysis, i'm starting to lean toward a bad wheel bearing. Would I be right to say that the vibration disappears above 45 mph? Which drive axle did they swap out?

Here's an update for today after driving for a couple hours on the interstate and after yesterday's learnings:

The heavy butt shaking (hah) is gone after swapping out the two visibly bent, stock 17" rims at the rear. I'm using the 16" rims from our A4 in place of all 4 stock rims. The 16" rims have nice soft touring tires installed and are perfectly balanced.

Now that the shaking in the seat of my pants is gone, I notice even more the vibration in the steering wheel, it's still there just as much as before so something is still wrong in the front end. It does get violent enough at the right speed that you can still get the whole chassis to shake. The coins in the center armrest jingle with the vibration.

I'm really thinking it's a bad wheel bearing assembly. I say assembly because there's a chance that although the bearing races are "OK", since it's a single piece press fit, it's possible the factory (F.A.G. bearings in Germany) didn't get the press fit right (see picture in this link: http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28814). If my tires are straight and balanced, the drive shafts are ok, the suspension is tight, and steering system is tight, what's left other than bearings

A couple other forum threads seem to talk about similar troubles, they are also leaning toward wheel bearings:

1. http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28814
2. http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27036

There is a sound that is constant in frequency, but changes in amplitude every 3-4 seconds when maintaining a constant road speed above 60 mph. Something is going in and out of resonance.

At this point I'm done dealing with the dealer, it's not worth the trouble to take it back, tell them what's wrong, wait a day, get the car back with something else wrong, etc... I'll get the bearing for $100, install it in an hour, have a beer and see if it's fixed