why biodiesel instead of WVO (waste vegetable oil)

[chittychittybangbang]

first, the kits available aren't that great. This thread at frybrid explains some of the shortcomings of the commercially available kits. It explains how some of the WVO kit retailers are charging you about 50% markup on their off the shelf parts, throwing in some custom parts and packaging it. They have the right to charge you more, and as a customer, you have the right to find better prices for the same quality.

http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=270

This company does have better kits than the others but they are also expensive.

Also, WVO is known for clogging and being thick. This is not appropriate for reliability at the levels of biodiesel. It will work and work fine for years if you use high quality fuel, but it's too tempting to skip steps and use lower quality fuel.

With biodiesel, if you skip steps, it won't turn out right and you won't (or at least you shouldn't) use it.

Reliability overall is still out for debate. It's still not proven 100% one way or another. For that reason, WVO conversions aren't featured on the FAQ pages. Biodiesel, however is 100% proven to be suitable, reliable, and works on diesels up to the pumpe duse technogy. The word is still out on using 100% biodiesel with pumpe duse, small percentages are approved by VW and ar definitely good for the engine.

[chittychittybangbang]

In any case, here are the sites for the popular WVO kits, FYI

http://www.greaseworks.org/
http://www.frybrid.com/
http://www.goldenfuelsystems.com/
http://www.greasecar.com/index.cfm
http://www.wvofuels.com/

[OM617]

Here is the primary reason not to use any kind of WVO/SVO: It's not a fuel.

Biodiesel is made from the start to become a fuel. WVO/SVO was/is only made to cook food.

[chittychittybangbang]

I agree with you partially. WVO can be fuel, but not a very good fuel for modern diesels. Then again, so can dirty engine oil, but if you're burning enough engine oil ,then you have other things to worry abou! This site is mostly VW oriented, but all diesels are welcome because it's an opportunity to share technology and knowledge. The 1000 answered questions at www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q.htm is a reliable source of information about turbocharging, diesel basics, etc., and I included nothing about WVO because biodiesel is a far superior fuel in emissions, injection pump stress, useability, etc.
This keeps the 1000q "FAQ" reliable and leaves hot topics to the forums.

[biopete]

WVO will carry you down the road at 100+ mph smoother than diesel fuel and as smooth as biodiesel : ) if that is not a fuel I do not know what is. The potential is definitely there in the TDIs and many diesels. If Rudolph Diesel quit when he had problems where would any of us be? Even if 10,000 TDIs are killed before the perfect system is found, would that be unreasonable. Thousands of animals are killed and tortured testing medicine and products we use every day. Testing engines to run healthy enviro friendly fuel is a good thing. You just have to be careful.

Oh man and if you ever work on a fuel system with grease it is much better than diesel . You get it on your hands and it is a skin conditioner rather than a toxic cancer causing irritant that diesel fuel is. A big plus. I hate to work on fuel systems with diesel in them.

chitty, You left Elsbett.com of your list of systems. They are probably the best system out there. They have been running diesels on vegetable oil for 20+ years and built there own direct injection engine to run SVO.

A brief overview of types of wvo systems having seen the manufactured systems including elsbett and made several of my own:

All Hot WVO systems are the same in principle: They heat the oil up tho 170 or 180 and you burn it. It does not matter how it gets hot and there are a million ways to do it and it can be done with a 1600.00 Frybrid kit or a few hundred bucks in hardware and some old junk just as well. The quality is in the components and the install and the operator. Personally, my kits on my TDIs i get the valves from Frybrid, the tank that golden fuel systems uses from a boat store, the tank heat exchanger frybrid uses from the aquamarine store, the switch from greasecar, aluminum tube to make my own hose in hose, and initially a vegtherm from Plantdrive.com. Took that off for fear of too much heat . It is just heating the oil. no modifications to engine in any way. I had problems after 13,000 miles with this system. Unburned fuel in cylinders. I caught it before any noticable damage was done and replaced injectors and started using canola. Now no unburned fuel in cylinders.

Now German companies like elsbett do single tank systems. They only recommend Canola oil , new or like new quality in TDIs or any car. Elsbett adjust the injection pop pressure up 10 bar on the tdi injectors. They do not have special injectors for TDI as i believed. They adjust the glow system to stay on until the water temperature hits 65C and they give you a heated filter. They also give bigger fuel supply line and rubber hose. The injector adjustment and oil is key i believe.

For a TDI, if you buy a kit, definitely by the elsbett. You can add a heated tank later if you want a two tank system. But you probably don't want that. if you make your own, try to get injectors adjusted. I know it is a 10bar increase but not sure if that is on both pre and post injection.

cheers

[MAXRPM]

I would not do a Frankestain experiment with my TDI cars, by using Biodiesel, or WVO or any other fuel alternative.

I have read and seen pics, of TDI cars with shot engines, becuse of using alternatives fuels, I think and believe that these cars were made to run on D2,, Iam sure we are getting closer to find an alternative fuel( not quite there yet) , at this moment I would not put my cars for a guinea pig experiment.

and to close this off,with all the respect for those using alternative fuel if you are happy with it, go for it..Happy TDIing.

[ArkRoyal]

I read a report from a company in Germany that did tests on WVO. They concluded to prevent the kinds of problems the the poor guy had who's engine heads are featured in http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/b.../biodiesel.htm you have to inject the WVO into the engine at a temp of 150C. That is a little over 300 F. 180 is good enough for the injection pump but it's not enough for the complete combustion of the oil.

I don't have a VW but I do have a new to me 1984 Benz 300sd turbo. I am bouncing back and forth between converting it to WVO or making a biodiesel system. I really wish I had some idea of how hot I can get the injection pump before the seals melt. I do think I can get the oil to well over 150 C by running a coil in the exhaust pipe. Or even using pencil type glow plugs in the fuel system, glow plugs get real hot and will last a long time if they are constantly immersed in oil. The problem I see with using a coil in the exhaust is over heating the oil. This could be solved with multiple taps off the coil but what do you do about the coil that doesn't have fuel flowing through it any more. It would probably burn in the coil and plug it up.

I am going to conduct some tests with pencil glow plugs and see how long it takes to get a set volume of oil from 180 to 300 F using a glow plug. I have read that a pencil tpe glow plug get as hot as 1000 degrees C or 1832 degrees F, that's REAL HOT. If I can't get the temp of the oil up fast enough I will go with biodiesel. If I can I think I will have a good WVO system. The real question is how long does it take a given volume of oil, say 10ml, at 180 degrees F to reach 300 degrees F in the presence of a 1832 degree heat source? I don't think it will take long.

And yes I know I have an indirect injection engine and it is much more forgiving then a direct injection engine but why pull on the dragons tail?

[GSP9587]

I haven't had any issues making biodiesel in my garage. I chose this over making modifications to my vehicles. I have made over 2000 gallons and run them through my F250, 1986 Jetta, 1982 300SD MB and now my 2001 Jetta TDI, over the last 3 yrs. The two older vehicles had the fuel line problem, but that is cheap and easy to fix. I make it for about 50 cents a gallon, so in the Jetta thats about a penny a mile. I would be happy to help, via phone calls and internet, anyone who wants to try and make their own. DOn't spend 2-3K on the pre built units, I already nickled and dimed myself finding the best way to do this...I would be happy to share.

[knutter]

To MAXRPM above - Biodiesel is not a Frankenstein experiment. There is a service station just down the road from me that sells B2 - B20 and you can order up to B100 from a distributor a few miles away. VW released a statement that up to B5 in it's new TDIs is ok. "Alternative" doesn't always have to mean "scary" or unfounded.

We've all seen the shot engines from running poorly processed or unheated WVO/SVO, but biodiesel is not the same and we should make that clear. I haven't seen or heard of anything - other than possibly some minor hose change-outs - being necessary to run biodiesel. A friend of mine has run bio in her 04 Jetta for years. In the summer she runs B100 and in winter B20, I think. (She lives in a cold climate).

[brucebanes]

If you used WVO you will notice the residue is sticky when the container is empty. The WVO/VO advocates claim if you heat it up and send it to the engine it will burn up and leave through the exhaust. I doubt this and they are reports that WVO gets in the crankcase and turns the oil into sludge ruining the engine. My issues are is it really healthy to send 190F oil into the engine? Can the seals handle it? Can you get up to the necessary temp in the first place? I used WVO and know others that use it and most have/had problems running Bio eliminiates the mess of WVO and turns it into a decent fuel that does not require thinning and cleans it up.